Students Speak Out: Minnesota
Bullying: One level
Thanks for the invite Brett! When it comes to the issue of bullying I can say I have experienced bullying on many different levels. From the persistent emotional battering to the exclusionary, to the very subtle and not so subtle adult forms that happen in order to keep power structures in place.
I have experienced it myself, have seen my children experience it, and have watched students in my classes try to deal with it. I have many stories!
I am not sure that bullying is "normal" but it certainly does present teachable moments and we can never have too many of those! I think of bullying as a symptom of a larger problem and here is an example:
One day last year my son came home from school and told me that he had after school detention, because he was rough with a girl sitting in front of him in class.
I looked at him completely astounded. Then he told me the story, which I later verified with the teacher.
The girl was rocking back on her chair and resting her elbows on my sons desk. He asked her not to. He had recently been in a bike accident and had a huge gash on his elbow that he was trying to protect. After asking her, enough times, not to rock on his desk she continued to blatantly disregarded his request, so he helped her move her elbows by pushing them off and not very gently.
Because he had touched her and "rocked HER boat" he got detention. She did not. I talked with the teacher and my son would get detention because he had been physical.
I went to a parent meeting and shared my thoughts on this situation and expressed that they better start doling out the detention for the antagonist also. Come to find out the girl had been a student at the school since K and no one wanted to really upset her standing. My son was a first year student. I met the girl at some activities and she was clearly the kind of girl that thinks and knows, by now, that she can get away with anything she wishes.
This is the larger problem...How, by 8th grade, does a child learn this behavior? To think that they can do what they please when ever they please? How does the one being bullied get the punishment? Yes, we understand that touching someone is not ok but how is it that those that cause mental distress slide under the radar? We can see it we know it happens...
Everyday working with 3,4,5 yr olds I see their young attempts at trying to be on top. They talk about how they are going to beat so and so and the pecking order is in full swing. I have seen a child taunt another until the emotional impact on the one is so intense they just can't stand it and their young self just hauls off and slugs the one that started it.
Who gets sent to time-out? The one that reacted. The perpetrator finds another toy with a smile on his face , getting exactly what he wanted...to demean the other child and remain on top. I have made a point to speak up, even though it is not my place as a non-staff member, to make sure the full story is known. While it is not ok to get physical with others it is absolutely not ok to emotionally torment either.
Yes, these are normal growing up exercises in social development...what's not normal is how the institutions are handling it. Placating children and taking their power away. This is a recipe for disaster.
I imagine a village...this village we hear so much about and I think about what the man interviewed by Cori Eby had to say. He was beat up by a boy in first grade on a daily basis, until one day he got him back. That ended it right there. They became friends! A similar thing happened to my son in pre-k. A little boy wouldn't leave my son alone until one day he socked my son in the stomach. My son proceeded to beat back and that was the last time any incident between the two took place.
I also imagine what would happen in a family with siblings, say playing in the family room while mom is making dinner and dad is out mowing the lawn. The siblings have a little spat. They can deal with it on their own or bring it to the parents who won't be happy and ground both of them. Or they can just not fight. This is how it was with my 3 surrogate sisters. We learned early on that mom was not going to deal with any nonsense from anyone or we would all get it. We learned how to work it out. This is supposed to be the great thing about public schools...the socialization.
But like someone told me, why would you bring a healthy fish to polluted waters? I'm afraid my fish just doesn't have enough years of his life to waste on nonsense! I wish he could be a beacon of light to others but there isn't any time! He must keep ahead of his studies and stay focused on succeeding in this world.
In schools severe things are happening and there are too many children, in one spot, unable to get the accurate guidance they need. Our schools set the climate by being a places where quick fixes are used to keep the day rolling along.
Children need to learn how to work things out on their own, they need to know that they can go to a teacher if things are getting to dangerous, they need to know that they have the power to protect themselves and that if they do they will not be punished, they need to know that if they are the bully they will be held accountable.
A tall social emotional order when all we really have time for are test scores and academics. Another reason we need to slow the pace of every day and take our time with the beings around us.
I have experienced it myself, have seen my children experience it, and have watched students in my classes try to deal with it. I have many stories!
I am not sure that bullying is "normal" but it certainly does present teachable moments and we can never have too many of those! I think of bullying as a symptom of a larger problem and here is an example:
One day last year my son came home from school and told me that he had after school detention, because he was rough with a girl sitting in front of him in class.
I looked at him completely astounded. Then he told me the story, which I later verified with the teacher.
The girl was rocking back on her chair and resting her elbows on my sons desk. He asked her not to. He had recently been in a bike accident and had a huge gash on his elbow that he was trying to protect. After asking her, enough times, not to rock on his desk she continued to blatantly disregarded his request, so he helped her move her elbows by pushing them off and not very gently.
Because he had touched her and "rocked HER boat" he got detention. She did not. I talked with the teacher and my son would get detention because he had been physical.
I went to a parent meeting and shared my thoughts on this situation and expressed that they better start doling out the detention for the antagonist also. Come to find out the girl had been a student at the school since K and no one wanted to really upset her standing. My son was a first year student. I met the girl at some activities and she was clearly the kind of girl that thinks and knows, by now, that she can get away with anything she wishes.
This is the larger problem...How, by 8th grade, does a child learn this behavior? To think that they can do what they please when ever they please? How does the one being bullied get the punishment? Yes, we understand that touching someone is not ok but how is it that those that cause mental distress slide under the radar? We can see it we know it happens...
Everyday working with 3,4,5 yr olds I see their young attempts at trying to be on top. They talk about how they are going to beat so and so and the pecking order is in full swing. I have seen a child taunt another until the emotional impact on the one is so intense they just can't stand it and their young self just hauls off and slugs the one that started it.
Who gets sent to time-out? The one that reacted. The perpetrator finds another toy with a smile on his face , getting exactly what he wanted...to demean the other child and remain on top. I have made a point to speak up, even though it is not my place as a non-staff member, to make sure the full story is known. While it is not ok to get physical with others it is absolutely not ok to emotionally torment either.
Yes, these are normal growing up exercises in social development...what's not normal is how the institutions are handling it. Placating children and taking their power away. This is a recipe for disaster.
I imagine a village...this village we hear so much about and I think about what the man interviewed by Cori Eby had to say. He was beat up by a boy in first grade on a daily basis, until one day he got him back. That ended it right there. They became friends! A similar thing happened to my son in pre-k. A little boy wouldn't leave my son alone until one day he socked my son in the stomach. My son proceeded to beat back and that was the last time any incident between the two took place.
I also imagine what would happen in a family with siblings, say playing in the family room while mom is making dinner and dad is out mowing the lawn. The siblings have a little spat. They can deal with it on their own or bring it to the parents who won't be happy and ground both of them. Or they can just not fight. This is how it was with my 3 surrogate sisters. We learned early on that mom was not going to deal with any nonsense from anyone or we would all get it. We learned how to work it out. This is supposed to be the great thing about public schools...the socialization.
But like someone told me, why would you bring a healthy fish to polluted waters? I'm afraid my fish just doesn't have enough years of his life to waste on nonsense! I wish he could be a beacon of light to others but there isn't any time! He must keep ahead of his studies and stay focused on succeeding in this world.
In schools severe things are happening and there are too many children, in one spot, unable to get the accurate guidance they need. Our schools set the climate by being a places where quick fixes are used to keep the day rolling along.
Children need to learn how to work things out on their own, they need to know that they can go to a teacher if things are getting to dangerous, they need to know that they have the power to protect themselves and that if they do they will not be punished, they need to know that if they are the bully they will be held accountable.
A tall social emotional order when all we really have time for are test scores and academics. Another reason we need to slow the pace of every day and take our time with the beings around us.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Brett on -
I think you make two very interesting points I have not looked at much yet.
The punishment for the bully when there are reactions, also the way schools handle the situations from the beginning.
I totally agree with you about changing the ways we deal with reactions. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Why wouldn't we punish the negative action that started it as well? Something that made me think about was the student who had been at the school since K you talked about. Do we try to always deal with students in equal ways, or do we have favoritism?
One thing I have been talking about which you touch on is the ways students deal with these issues and then how administration handles it. Is it fair to always let the kids fight it out, (while the bully gets away with actions) or should we have a better system in place for setting these kids straight? Why bring a healthy fish to polluted waters, why let our kids go through this crap if we can set people straight right away?
I love your second to last paragraph because it is exactly how we should be handling our bullying problems. We need a balance of student interference and administration. We should not need to let it boil down to physical conflict. You never know what kind of bully it is, and as kids get older their involvement in very negative activities and access to resources increases. The last thing I want is anyone to stand up to another student and end up in the hospital later because someone took that small confrontation very seriously and brought it to another level. I honestly worry about gang activity, or what type of resources kids have to harm other students. Sometimes you don’t always know when to bring in someone else in to deal with bullying of others or yourself, (if at all possible). It has only been so long ago that school shootings started to appear, and some of the levels of confrontation we have witnessed in school settings.
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Permalink Reply by Carolyn Avaire on
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Hi Brett, I understand your fear about gang related activity. This is another level of bullying. My post above was considering very young activity. I don't think letting kids fight it out is the best way. I just can't help but be fascinated by the incidences of bullying that have ended when a child is able to protect themselves.
Gang activity is another area altogether and it is the area that keeps teachers in a hands-off mode when it comes to bullying. I have worked with a teacher that has told me when it comes to a certain child she will not interfere, because that child's father has threatened her, subtly of course.
My son went to the same MPS school that you left. He enjoyed it for the most part, but like you say things change in high school and I am glad that he had some other choices.
Interestingly, my experience with bullying was long before Columbine and prevalent gang activity in schools. The bullies were the kids of privilege getting down on the less fortunate. Keeping them down in other words. It was the jock and cheerleader types that always had a mouthful of hurtful words.
Bullying has been around since the beginning of time! It comes in many forms and continues through out life. This topic is pretty deep and complex because we can't narrow it down to one level of bullying.
What should we be focusing on for this forum? We are trying to find solutions to bullying at the high school level? As you mentioned the level of confrontation is escalating. Why? Is it just access to more violent resources or would the confrontation be just as severe without those resources?
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I need to add to my post above that I do not generalize my thoughts about "jock and cheerleader" types! I speak of my experience only. It comes down to what Nora speaks about when she talks about differences. I have to agree with her. I believe that differences was a huge reason for what I experienced. I was different and I liked it that way! However the pressure to conform is intense and people don't like seeing differences especially when they are trying so hard to be the best in the eyes of society. A "different" person is sort of an affront to their efforts.
The older I get the more I realize the importance of unconditional love. We humans are struggling. I could have grown up to be bitter and angry with the status quo but more and more I realize that people only learn by example.
If I want people who are different to be themselves without fear then I have to be an example of how being different is nothing to fear.
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