Students Speak Out: Minnesota
Is Bullying Normal?
Brett invited me to comment so here's mine, Mean people suck! ;-) Is being mean an aspect of being human, or is it a deviation? Is bullying something we need to control or cure? Each answer may imply different strategies. Is bullying an individual or group behavior, or both? What function does it serve in each case? Be assured that it does serve some function in all cases, both individually and socially. You guys should also discuss this recent article in the Tribuine: http://www.startribune.com/nation/16517591.html.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Victoria Ford on
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Michael, great to see you back on here!
I'm wondering whether you have any stories to share (that might help answer your questions) - either of your own experiences, or your children's experiences, or observations you've made when you've been at schools.
And everyone else - I think the question about "is it an individual behavior or a group behavior" is really important! We've mostly heard about one-on-one bullying, but does anyone have experiences with group bullying?
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Permalink Reply by Michael Atherton on
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I have plenty of stories about bullying, but I don't think that's what's useful here. We can play, "ain't it awful" till the cows come home and get nowhere. If this is an emotional support group then fine, but if you want to have positive effects you need to understand why bullying is so prevalent and persistent. What happens if you don't is the kind of disaster you have at Hale which is currently being discussed in the Mpls Parents group, e.g. you get an anti-bullying program that bullies people.
Sorry, I haven't been involved lately. I'm trying to get licensed as a secondary math teacher and it's a little more difficult than I thought. ;-)
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Permalink Reply by Nora on -
I don't think that we will ever be able to 'cure' bullying. Criticism is part of human nature but the amount depends on the person. Some people see the faults in others more than the good things and they tend to be what we would consider a bully. So what we should focus on is not curing bullying but controlling it.
Sometimes bullying is individual and sometimes it is a group activity. It happens that a whole group of people will gang up on one person and bully them but that doesn't happen often because usually the person being bullied is vulnerable enough that it does not take a whole group. What happens the most is that there is one person who a lot of people pick on individually.
The person being bullied is usually an easy target because there is something about them that sticks out. They are usually kind of odd and people don't really know how to act around them so they bully the kid. There most times is not a long standing benefit. Sometimes the bully will get a few laughs out of whatever they said but other than that, there isn't much reward. I think usually kids who bully a lot do it because it gives them a form of confidence or makes them feel better about themselves.
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Nora, that's a very insightful reply. A similar way to think about it is to consider how bullying supports the coherence of in-groups and out-groups. There are also reinforcing individual factors for bullying. What do you think?
BTW, I gained an immense amount of understanding about this from one book. It's one of my top ten ever: http://www.amazon.com/Group-Dynamics-Donelson-R-Forsyth/dp/0534368220/. It's a college text, but pretty readable.
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Permalink Reply by Brett on -
Thank you for your input BTW!
I think something interesting about that article, was the statistics. Certain groups had higher percentages that others, I would be curious to find out more about why that is. Maybe we can discuss it further here?
I think depending on the situation, it will require different action that fits under one unbrella. Maybe we should think about developing group strategies and individual ones too? From your point of view, what do you think would be the most effective way to tackle as many types of bullying?
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Great observation! The degree and severity of bullying does differ between groups. To my knowledge it's most severe in the Russian military and worse in Japanese schools than ours (http://www.lclark.edu/~krauss/advwrf99/causeeffect/akikocause.html). I think (but can't prove), that there are several major factors: 1) the importance of establishing group loyalty and commitment (though cognitive dissonance; see Wikipedia for def. and examples); 2) the amount of deviance from social norms that groups allow; 3) the ratio of meanness to kindness in the general culture. What do you think? I'm not quite ready to say what I think are the most effective ways to control it. I want to hear more from you guys.
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Permalink Reply by Stacy Becker on
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Several months ago I posted an article in City Pages about Hmong in Mpls schools-- which discussed some of the bullying going on. Might be useful here again.
I tend to agree with Nora that the objective should be controlling bullying, not curing it (although curing it has some important longterm benefits). See Cori's discussion and thoughts on this.
Finally Michael, I just have to say that stories are important! Not as feel good, mushy support group stuff, but as insights into what is actually taking place. I have found the students' stories very enlightening--and they then help put the kind of data and evidence you point to into a meaningful context for people. Also, decision-makers typically rely on just that sort of personally meaningful context when they weigh an issue.
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Permalink Reply by Nora on
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I think that a lot of times bullying occurs more in places or settings, like schools and things, where people are not exposed to very much diversity. For example, in a school where there is not that much cultural diversity, a person of a different race will stick out more than in a school where people are used to cultural diversity. When I talked to kids in the suburbs who did not have much diversity at their schools it sounded like the main thing that people were bullied about was race.
Like I mentioned before, bullying often happens because of differences. If people are used to those differences then they don't feel uncomfortable and are less likely to bully. Sometimes people bully as a way of preventing themselves from having to stray out of their comfort zone.
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Hmmm...I'm not sure if I agree. I tend to think that bullying is somewhat independent of differences. However, three is some research that shows when the percentage of a minority group is small there is little discrimination, but when it rises above some threshold then active discrimination begins, implying that low numbers are a curiosity, but larger numbers are a threat.
I tend to believe that "differences" are just a "surface" feature of a more inherent process. People will always be able to find differences. Italian immigrants use to be perceived as "dark." Individuals bully because it gives them a feeling of power and it can be materially or socially rewarding. Groups bully for those reasons, plus it contributes to group cohesion: it helps define in-groups and out-groups. What do you think?
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Stacy said, "Also, decision-makers typically rely on just that sort of personally meaningful context when they weigh an issue."
Sad, but true. :-) Politicians respond to the most weighty, but not always the most representative, relevant, or accurate data. I have a severe aversion to basing policy on anecdotes.
So, just to conform to the suble social pressure here, I'll include my story. I'm not sure if this is quite what your hoping for. ;-)
I've always had a sharp temper so in elementary school kids pretty much left me alone, until one of those life changing events. A friend of mine said something bad about my mother and while I was seriously beating on him I realized that I might actually hurt him, so I stopped. Since that time I've never been inclined to act in my own defense when bullied, but have always been quick to defend others. In middle school I was such a loner and had such a low profile that people pretty much ignored me, however in high school this changed. Deviant outcasts stand "out" in high school and people started giving me a hard time. Then one day I happened to intervene when I thought two guys were bullying a smaller kid (they were actually just fooling around), but they were impressed and invited me to hang with them. Being "included" changed my life. This clique was a lose collection of hippies and delinquents and much to my surprise girls in this group were actually interested in me, however this interest also brought me to the attention of the "tough" guys and the jocks who wanted to date the same girls and the harassment intensified and continued for two years (I was like just a peaceful hippie, "Peace and love, bro."). Finally, after someone vandalized my family's car I called him out about it and got into a fight, which I got the worst of, but nobody hassled me after that. That's become my personal philosophy of bullying. If you don't want to be bullied you need to make it sufficiently unrewarding for people to target you. This approach has worked well for me (if you don't mind getting hurt), except in three cases where it backfires. 1) You have to be very careful with gangs because they have a reputation to maintain. 2) It doesn't work well with *real* tough guys, by which I mean scary criminal types who are both sadistic and masochistic. The more you hurt them, the more they want to keep on. 3) It doesn't go over very well in grownup Middle Class America. There are too many layers of social pressure and constraints, but working class is okay.
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Oh geez, I hate to bring this up because it' so controveresial...but if we can't discuss it here... It gets at your third point Michael.
An education researcher, Ruby Payne, has worked out what she calls "hidden rules"--a set of differentiated values by class. Her work is repudiated by many academics. She bases her work on years of observation and living amongst different classes (i.e., stories Michael!) When it comes to conflict resolution (she also speaks to education and peresonal identity), she suggests:
Fighting – How conflicts are resolved
Wealthy – Done through social exclusion and lawyers
Middle Class – Done verbally; issues are discussed
Generational Poverty – Done physically with fists
and bodies
I raise it because it gets at what Michael and some of the students have suggested-- that the best solutions may differ by group. But maybe some of you think this is all nonsense at best or stereotyping at worst (which many of her critics claim)--and you should say that too!
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Michael --we've been focusing mostly on why individuals tend to bully--but there have also been comments about the types of settings in which bullying is more often found. One student commented (sorry--forgot who!) that the same people will bully in one classroom and not other. There also seems to be a thread (through these discussions and the ALC discussions) that bullying is less prevalent in smaller schools.
Is there any research that suggests environments that "enable" or "permit" bullying?
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